tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8755171752803157077.post5169672932724732541..comments2023-06-29T03:45:18.969-07:00Comments on The Constellation Hypothesis: More on the Limited Extent of the Atonement in Response to Rob Bell's Apparent View and Subsequent YouTube and Blogger Discussion on the MatterLouishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07276304333361151814noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8755171752803157077.post-23890347585887697052008-05-04T15:15:00.000-07:002008-05-04T15:15:00.000-07:00Christ died for the sins of the world.All sins, of...Christ died for the sins of the world.<BR/><BR/>All sins, of all people, everywhere, of all time.<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Ezekiel 18:23-24,32; 33:11, and Jonah 4:1-2 just to name a few. It seems to me that the heart of God is to redeem all of mankind to Himself...not just a few.<BR/><BR/>Now, about your view of the atonement. Personally, I find the whole idea of Christ repaying a "legal debt" to a God whose just wrath must be subdued to be completely devoid of one of God's primary attributes...LOVE.<BR/><BR/>The understanding that we have a debt with God like the many examples you brought up and that Christ came to pay that debt (a.k.a. "Penal Substitution") seems to me to lack the key ingredient of salvation...FORGIVENESS.<BR/><BR/>If this is to be our understanding of the atonement then we shouldn't see God as forgiving us of anything, for indeed, our debt has been payed...not forgiven.<BR/><BR/>The example of the $400 ticket doesn't show the forgiveness of the judge. It shows that someone was willing to stand in your place pay the price that you owed. While very compelling...it still lacks forgiveness. The debt wasn't forgiven...the debt was paid or satisfied.<BR/><BR/>I certainly accept the aspect of the atonement known as "Substitutionary atonement" but not within the context of "Penal Substitution" but within the context of "Christus Victor," a view of the atonement that I believe truly represents the forgiveness and love of God as well as the cosmic battle between good and evil.<BR/><BR/>Check out:<BR/>http://www.christusvictorministries.org/main/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=99999999<BR/><BR/>...for a list of questions regarding penal substitution.<BR/><BR/>and..<BR/>http://www.sharktacos.com/God/cross_intro.shtml<BR/><BR/>...for an in depth look at Christus Victor vs. Penal Substitution.<BR/><BR/>much love bro,<BR/><BR/>in Him,<BR/>>>zackZack Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17624381145188381774noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8755171752803157077.post-57833014363013811802008-03-26T18:13:00.000-07:002008-03-26T18:13:00.000-07:00Excuse my assuming you had not read St. Thomas Aqu...Excuse my assuming you had not read St. Thomas Aquinas. Upon further reading in your other blogs, it seems you have. But nonetheless, his understanding of the atonement is very much the same as the "natural consequences theorist" you refer to.Andrea Bacahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11327147702305454667noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8755171752803157077.post-35831887807662594742008-03-26T11:11:00.000-07:002008-03-26T11:11:00.000-07:00You see, if Jesus wasn't then dying (at least in p...You see, if Jesus wasn't then dying (at least in part) to fully pay a legal debt to God, then what was He dying for? What did it accomplish? How much more should the natural consequence theorist affirm the limited extent of the atonement of Christ!<BR/><BR/>Comment: The understanding of the "natural consequence theorist" is that there wasn't a legal debt to God at all. There was a natural debt. "The wages of sin is death." Our consequence for sin was death, and Christ redeemed us so that we would no longer die. <BR/><BR/>In one fell swoop, Jesus died for the world and paid the price for all. "For God so loved the 'world' that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not 'perish' but have everlasting life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the 'world' but that the 'world' be saved by him."<BR/><BR/>God's atoning power is beyond measure, but it is a person's willingness to accept it or not that sends them to hell. <BR/><BR/>I used to think like you, but part of coming to an accurate understanding in all this is to de-program our minds from what we've previously understood, and look through the issues through a different pair of glasses. <BR/><BR/>A couple of notable "scholars" to read:<BR/><BR/>St. John Chrysostom<BR/>St. Thomas AquinasAndrea Bacahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11327147702305454667noreply@blogger.com